Manual Stimulation: Susano-o Densetsu (PC Engine)

If only I'd penned and published this post last summer as intended.

Back then, one of my favorite retro-game blogs, The Brothers Duomazov, was still alive and well.

OK, so maybe "well" isn't the right word to use here. After all, it hadn't been updated in more than three years at that point.





I could access and enjoy all of its reviews of old PC Engine and TurboGrafx-16 games whenever I wanted, though, and that was more than enough for me. (I swear I read some of them at least 10 times each. They were like comfort food for me.)

I bring up The Brothers Duomazov, by the way, because it was one of the only sites that offered up any real information on this obscure, Japan-only RPG from 1989.

Also, it pushed me to buy a copy of the game. Before I read the brothers' thoughts on Susano-o Densetsu, I skipped right over it each and every time I came across it on eBay or my go-to online stores.





What can I say? Its cover art screams "bad game" to me--despite the fact that a buff dude is front and center and the esteemed Hudson Soft logo sits just below his hairless torso.

Well, The Brothers Duomazov opened my eyes to the fact that Susano-o Densetsu is far from a bad game. Actually, their write-up made it seem pretty darn interesting.

For starters, it's a HuCard-based role-playing game--an honest-to-goodness rarity as far as the PC Engine is concerned.





Also, its battles don't rip off Dragon Quest or Final Fantasy like pretty much every other RPG did in the late 1980s. Instead, fights in Susano-o Densetsu offer players a bit more freedom than was typical for the genre at the time.

Combine that with this Alfa System-made game's cyberpunk-ish aesthetic, and it should be easy enough to understand why I'm now a proud owner of a complete copy.

The instruction manual showcased in this post was pulled from the interior of that copy, naturally. It's quite something, wouldn't you agree? Admittedly, it could use a few (or a lot) more illustrations, but I think it's pretty fabulous even in its current state.





I especially like the full-page world map featured on its fifth page. And of course I adore the item and enemy drawings highlighted on the Susano-o Densetsu manual's final spread.

What's your opinion of this surprisingly beefy booklet? Do you love it? Do you hate it? Or maybe it doesn't inspire any kind of emotional reaction from you? Regardless, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

See also: previous 'Manual Stimulation' posts about Dungeon Explorer, KiKi KaiKai, Parodius Da!, and Son Son II.

Let's celebrate the 30th anniversary of the PC Engine's launch

It's almost hard for me to believe NEC Home Electronics and Hudson Soft launched the PC Engine all the way back on Oct. 30, 1987.

I say "almost" because I have fairly vivid childhood memories of ogling photos of the diminutive console that were published in North American gaming magazines around the time of its Japanese release.

Considering it's been a good, long while since anyone's mistaken me for a kid, I'd say 30 years seems about right regarding when I first became aware of--and fell in love with--the PC Engine.

Of course, you don't have to be a decades-old fan of the PC Engine celebrate the 30th anniversary of its launch. Even those of you who are just discovering the system with this post can and should join in the fun.

After all, the PC Engine was home to some of the wackiest video games ever to see the light of day--in my humble opinion, of course. Actually, it was home to a lot of games, period. Some were amazing, some were atrocious, but most continue to be worth at least a quick look if you tend to enjoy games made with pixels rather than polygons.



Hell, I'm still becoming acquainted with the PC Engine and its vast catalog myself. For proof, see this post about the 12 HuCards (that's what the system's credit card-sized game carts are called) I've picked up this year alone.

Itching to learn more about this deliciously odd little console? Read my write-up about five overlooked PC Engine games you should play as soon as possible. And when you're done with it, head over to this follow-up--which details five more overlooked HuCards I think are well worth even a few minutes of your time.

I'd also recommend taking a look at my post about the best PC Engine game manuals I've seen (so far). And if that write-up trips your trigger, you'll probably enjoy looking through all 27 PC Engine manuals I've scanned and shared to date.

Are any of you PC Engine fans, too? If so, let the love flow in the comments section that follows.

See also: 'Seven ways you can celebrate the 27th anniversary of the PC Engine's release'

Nice Package! (Bikkuriman World, PC Engine)

Over the years, I've "come around" to loads of games I initially found underwhelming (or worse).

A few examples I've written about as part of my on-again, off-again "Second Chances" series: Bubble Bobble Junior for the GameBoy, Don Doko Don for Famicom, Magical Taruruuto-kun for Game Gear and Valkyrie no Densetsu for PC Engine.



Why I've yet to publish a "Second Chances" entry on Hudson Soft's Bikkuriman World is beyond me. After all, while my first experiences with this PC Engine reimagining of Sega's Wonder Boy in Monster Land left me feeling unimpressed, my opinion of it improved substantially following subsequent playthroughs.

That's not to say my negative early impressions of Bikkuriman World weren't warranted. The game features tiny character sprites, a rather intrusive HUD (status bar, basically) and controls that are equal parts slippery and stiff.

Later jaunts through its adorable environments were far less annoying. The complaints I just leveled at the game remained true, of course, but some of them slowly, but surely, morphed into aspects I either accepted (its controls) or appreciated (its graphics).

A few things I didn't have to come around to regarding Bikkuriman World are its HuCard label and manual cover.

Both are showcased in the photos above. Even when I wasn't a fan of the game, I still liked the chibi character illustrations that are the focus of its cover and cart-label art. I've always long loved the bubbly Bikkuriman logo, too.

Sadly, the instruction manual packed inside copies of this side-scrolling platformer isn't quite as visually impressive as that booklet's cover imagery. To see what I mean, check out my "Manual Stimulation" post about Bikkuriman World.



Also, if you're a PC Engine fan in general, keep an eye out in the coming weeks and months for more "Nice Package!" posts devoted to games made for NEC's console.

In the meantime, enjoy the ones I've already published about Dungeon Explorer, Pac-Land, Parodius Da! and Son Son II.

Nice Package! (Hatena Satena, GameBoy Advance)

This obscure, Japan-only puzzler from 2001 was one of eight titles I included in my recent post full of #HudsonMonth game recommendations.

Why do I think people should play it? For starters, its gameplay is similar to that of the ever-popular Picross.

Also, the visuals and audio offered up by Hatena Satena are light years beyond what you'll see and hear in your typical Picross title. Need proof? Check out this "let's play" video of the game.



Another reason I think folks should play--or at least buy a copy of--Hatena Satena is that its packaging is stunning.

I'm especially impressed with its box cover, which can be seen in the photo above. My personal favorite element of it: the logo, which is so heavily stylized that it's nearly impossible to decipher.



I also like the cover's depictions of Hatena Satena's adorable, Super Milk Chan-esque cast of characters, of course--the part-alien, part-octopus protagonist, in particular.

Speaking of whom, his or her smiling face also can be found on the game's cartridge label.

The snapshot above offers a glimpse of Hatena Satena's instruction manual. Unfortunately, the majority of this booklet is filled with text and screenshots--much like the manual that was produced for a similarly overlooked (and sadly Japan-only) GameBoy Advance puzzler called Guru Logi Champ.



The back of Guru Logi Champ's box is a bit of a bummer, I've got to say. Why its artists and designers couldn't have continued the front cover's brilliance on the reverse is beyond me. I guess someone at Hudson decided the space had to be covered with explanatory text instead.

Have any of you played Hatena Satena? If so, please share your thoughts on it in the comments section of this post. Also feel free to share your impressions of Guru Logi Champ, if you've played that GBA puzzler.

See also: previous 'Nice Package!' posts about Guru Logi Champ and Hitsuji no Kimochi

Manual Stimulation: Bomberman (PC Engine)

To be frank, there aren't a whole lot of reasons to buy, own or play the first PC Engine Bomberman title in 2016.

In fact, I can only think of three reasons at the moment: 1) you're a huge fan of this Hudson-made series, 2) you have a bunch of friends as well as a bunch of PC Engine (or TurboGrafx-16) controllers and 3) you're trying to fill out your HuCard collection and this game is the best of what's left on your dwindling wish list.



Actually, I just came up with another reason: you like Bomberman's iconic cover art, which can be seen in the scan above. (As always, click on it to take a much better and closer look at its contents.)



OK, so maybe I'm being a bit harsh. The first Bomberman isn't a complete turd, after all. Still, it pales in comparison to later titles, like Bomberman '93, Bomberman '94 and Saturn Bomberman.



That's mainly because the play fields, power-ups and enemy selection in this entry fail to display the imagination and creativity that seemingly helped produce the aforementioned sequels.



Thankfully, fun can be had despite the fact that it's all rather vanilla. Plus, nabbing a copy of this version of Bomberman these days won't cost you an arm and a leg (unlike a lot of other PC Engine or TurboGrafx-16 games) and it'll also net you the surprisingly appealing instruction manual that's displayed throughout this post.



Admittedly, the Bomberman depictions in this manual are kind of wonky, but the other illustrations on hand go a long way toward making up for it.



Also, the folks who designed Bomberman's booklet covered its handful of pages with some nice pops of color.

Could this particular PC Engine instruction manual be better, flashier, more fabulous? Of course. Even as is, though, it's got more going for it than Rainbow Islands' or Parasol Star's manual, so at least there's that.

See also: previous 'Manual Stimulation' posts about Bikkuriman World, Dungeon Explorer, Hana Taaka Daka!? and The New Zealand Story

Get your piping hot #HudsonMonth game recommendations here!

In case you weren't already aware, December is "Hudson Month," according to my friend Anne Lee (of the Chic Pixel blog).

What does that mean? Basically, it means you're supposed to play one or more games made by the now-defunct developer and publisher Hudson Soft sometime this month and then blog or tweet about the experience (using #HudsonMonth in the latter scenario)--if you're willing and able, of course.

If Hudson Soft doesn't ring a bell, maybe the names of some of the company's most famous releases will: Adventure Island, Bomberman and Bonk's Adventure.

Although there's nothing wrong with playing through one of those titles or their sequels for this game-along, there are many other--and oftentimes better--options available to you, such as the following:

DoReMi Fantasy: Milon no DokiDoki Daibouken (Super Famicom)--There weren't many side-scolling platformers made for the Super Famicom or SNES that can compete with Nintendo's own Super Mario World or Yoshi's Island. DoReMi Fantasy is one of the few. Greatly helping matters is this cart's gameplay, which is reminiscent of Mizubaku Daibouken's. Physical copies (loose or complete) tend to be absurdly pricey these days, but that's not a problem if you've got a Wii or Wii U, as DoReMi Fantasy can be bought from both of their online shops for just a few bucks.



Hatena Satena (GameBoy Advance)--If you like Picross or even that old standby, Minesweeper, you'll love this 2001 Japan-only GameBoy Advance title. That's because Hatena Satena combines elements of both of those popular puzzlers, and the resulting effort more than stands on its own. Even better, Hatena Satena has a funky aesthetic that puts that of its predecessors to shame. Relevant aside: Compile's Guru Logi Champ will provide you with even more Picross-y thrills should Hatena Satena not fully satisfy your craving.



Kororinpa (Wii)--This is one of those early Wii games that made full use of the system's motion-sensing controller. In fact, Kororinpa is played by twisting and turning the Wii Remote to do the same to the title's labyrinthine levels--with the goal being to roll a ball (or something resembling a ball, at least) from each stage's entrance to its exit. That's harder than it sounds, of course. Thankfully, the game's colorful backdrops and chipper background tunes help take the edge off some of its tension. Bonus: cheap copies of both the first Kororinpa and its sequel can be bought via eBay these days.

Monster Lair (TurboGrafx-16)--If you're a PC Engine aficionado, you likely know this game by its original name, Wonder Boy III: Monster Lair. Whatever you call it, though, it's a great little game that's one part platformer and one part shoot 'em up. There's more to Monster Lair than its intriguing gameplay, though. The game's also a real looker thanks to its liberal use of color and its big, bold sprites. Its soundtrack is pure bliss, too. Relevant aside: I saved up and bought a pricey TurboGrafx-CD add-on as a teen solely because of this game.

Nuts & Milk (Famicom)--This single-screen platformer (don't be fooled, it's nothing like Bubble Bubble) was the first third-party game to be released for the Famicom. Despite that, and despite the fact that Nuts & Milk is just as fun as many classics from the same era, maker Namco never brought it to North America. Thankfully, it's easy enough to play in 2016 and beyond no matter where in the world you live. Actual carts are both abundant and cheap (on eBay and the like), or of course you can go the old "boot up the ROM" route. (If you own a Japanese 3DS, Wii or Wii U, you can buy Nuts & Milk from that region's Virtual Console. Unfortunately, the same can't be said if you own a recent Nintendo system that originates from North America or Europe.)

Princess Tomato in the Salad Kingdom (NES)--All you really need to know about this 1991 release: it's an old-school point-and-click adventure starring anthropomorphic pieces of produce. That alone should make you sit down and play it, in my opinion. If that's not enough, consider its grin-inducing visuals and its jaunty soundtrack. Also, Princess Tomato in the Salad Kingdom can be picked up quickly and cheaply via the Wii eShop if you have that Nintendo console or the Wii U. Why the higher-ups at Konami (which now owns Hudson's intellectual properties) have yet to slip the game onto any region's 3DS eShop is beyond me.



Saturn Bomberman (Saturn)--If you play just one of the games discussed here, let it be this one. In my humble opinion, this is the best, most enjoyable Bomberman game to ever see the light of day. Plus, its graphics are so adroitly drawn and animated they'll make you tear up. As for Saturn Bomberman's music, I can't say it'll make you cry, but it'll definitely help set the mood for a properly thorough play session. If you're without a Sega Saturn and a copy of this game, by the way, you can buy the next best thing, Bomberman '94 for the PC Engine, from the Wii eShop or the PlayStation Store.

Star Parodier (PC Engine)--I fell in love with this overhead, vertical-scrolling shoot 'em up the second I found out one of its selectable ships was a PC Engine system that takes down oncoming enemies with HuCards and CDs and deflects their projectiles using controllers that double as as shields. (You can choose to pilot Bomberman, too, curiously enough.) Sadly, that's about the wackiest thing you can say about Star Parodier. The rest of its content is quite a bit less intriguing than similar games like Parodius and Pop'n TwinBee. Still, this Super CD-ROM2 title is well worth checking out if you're a fan of the shmup genre in particular or cute games in general.

Are you a fan of a Hudson Soft-made or -published game not discussed here? Let me--and others--know about it in the comments section below.

Manual Stimulation: Bikkuriman World (PC Engine)

A little warning before you start scrolling through this post: Hudson Soft's Bikkuriman World was one of the very first games released for the PC Engine.

Keeping that in mind should help you appreciate, or at least accept, the generally ho-hum nature of this 1987 game's instruction manual.



Given the title's pedigree, you could be forgiven for thinking it's a bit strange that Bikkuriman World's booklet can be described in such a way.

Specifically, Bikkuriman began life in the 1980s when Japanese candy-maker Lotte introduced a chocolate-and-peanut snack of the same name. Each package included a Bikkuriman sticker that children could use to play a tag-like game.



The stickers, especially, became a big hit--so much so that both manga and anime series featuring the Bikkuriman characters followed. As did, of course, the PC Engine game discussed here.

Hudson Soft didn't create Bikkuriman World from the ground up, by the way. Instead, the company took Westone's Wonder Boy in Monster Land and altered some of its sprites (the bosses, mostly) to look like figures from the Bikkuriman franchise.



Some of those figures can be seen on Bikkuriman World's cover art, above. Others can be found on the first couple of pages of its manual.

Oddly, that's all the space the Bikkuriman cast are given in this booklet's handful of pages. Most of the rest of its acreage is devoted to black-and-white screenshots and explanatory text.



We do get a few nice illustrations of weapons, armor, items and power-ups near the end, at least. Still,  would it have killed Hudson Soft's artists to crank out a couple of enemy drawings? I guess so.

Oh, well, at least Bikkuriman World's old-school platforming gameplay is strong enough to make this little slip-up a lot easier to take in stride.

See also: previous 'Manual Stimulation' posts about Dungeon Explorer, Parodius Da!, Son Son II and Valkyrie no Densetsu

Nice Package! (Dungeon Explorer, PC Engine)

If you're one of the many millions of non-Japanese gamers who ignored the PC Engine or TurboGrafx-16 back in the late 1980s and early 1990s--or, you know, you're young enough that this is the first you're hearing of either of those NEC-made consoles--you may not know much, if anything, about Dungeon Explorer.

The best way to describe it, I think, is to say it's a clone of Atari's Gauntlet, itself a product of the 1980s. That's not an entirely accurate comparison, mind you, as Dungeon Explorer takes that classic quarter-mucher's overhead hack-and-slash gameplay and builds on it greatly. Still, there's little doubt the team behind Dungeon Explorer looked toward Gauntlet while developing their title, so I'm comfortable leaving my description as is.



Gameplay isn't the only area in which Dungeon Explorer bests Gauntlet, by the way. It also beats it in the graphics department.

Now, that's not to say the PC Engine title's the looker of the 16-bit generation, but it's definitely atmospheric. To see what I mean, check out the screenshots found in videogameden.com's and thebrothersduomazov.com's write-ups on this five-player game.

Of course, you expect an atmospheric experience when you play at Atlus-developed game, right? Wait, you didn't know the company behind Shin Megami Tensei and Persona made Dungeon Explorer? Well, it did.

And then Hudson Soft--the now-defunct company that brought the world the Adventure Island, Bomberman and a number of other series--published it. (In 1989, to be exact.)

As for Dungeon Explorer's lovely packaging, which is supposed to be the focus of this post, I've got to say its cover (and HuCard) illustration is my favorite part of the whole she-bang. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it's among the best the PC Engine has to offer when it comes to box art.



That's not to say other components aren't ogle-worthy, too. For instance, Dungeon Explorer's instruction manual is filled to the brim with fabulous illustrations like the ones--of the game's cast of characters--showcased in the photo above. (For scans of the entire Dungeon Explorer manual, check out my latest "Manual Stimulation" post.)

With all that said, have any of you played Dungeon Explorer--or even Gauntlet? If so, share your thoughts on those titles in the comments section that follows. (Fair warning: I could talk about the latter for hours.)

See also: 'five PC Engine games you've overlooked and need to play ASAP'

Acquisition #149: Binary Land (Famicom)

Full disclosure: I went on a bit of an eBay binge shortly after the holidays and ended up buying a bunch of Famicom, GameBoy Advance, PlayStation and even PSP games.

The game seen in the photos below--Hudson Soft's Binary Land for the Famicom--was one of the aforementioned pick-ups.

I know a good number of you won't believe me, but I didn't buy this one because of its overt pinkness. In fact, it's one of my favorite Famicom games (here's a video of its first stage), and the only reason it took me so long to add it to my collection is that complete-in-box copies of this unique, arcade-y title don't seem to pop up on eBay all that often.



Sure, this copy's box is kind of banged up, but I don't mind. Actually, I like that its previous owners showed it some love.

Here's a better look at the game's awesome box art, by the way:



It's hard to hate on a game that features a pair of adorably pastel penguins, isn't it? It's also hard to hate on a game that has a logo made up of a number of hearts.

Or at least it's hard for me to hate on a game that meets such criteria.



Going back a bit to my comment about the love this copy of Binary Land was shown by its previous owner(s): as you can see in the photo above, the back of its box features a smidge of handwriting. I don't suppose any of you can suss out what it says?

Regardless, expect to see a number of "Acquisition #123" posts in the coming weeks that focus on the remainder of my recent eBay haul.

See also: previous 'Acquisition #123' posts

Five favorites: Games featuring penguins

My recent experiences with The Berlin Wall, a Japanese Game Gear title that's filled with penguins of various colors and sizes, got me thinking it might be fun to write about my favorite games that feature these waddling, flightless birds.

This post is the result of that brainstorming, of course. Please note that I decided to focus on games that have penguin protagonists. As such, you won't see games like the aforementioned platformer or, say, Super Mario 64 discussed here.

1. Binary Land (Famicom)--This Hudson Soft-made game, which puts players in control of a pair of in-love penguins, is one of my favorite Famicom games, so it shouldn't be too surprising that I'm including it here. I don't love Binary Land because of its adorable protagonists, by the way; I love it because of its unique gameplay (you literally control both characters at the same time as you work them toward each stage's "exit" of sorts) and its highly hummable soundtrack.

2. Parodius Da! (PC Engine)--I could have included any of Konami's Parodius games in this post, really, but I decided to go with this, the series' second release, because it's the first I played. A few additional reasons for its inclusion here: it stars Pentarou, son of Antarctic Adventure's main character, and it features hordes of penguin "baddies" as well as a rather notable penguin boss (who earns extra points from yours truly for being both pink and a pirate), too.

I can't think of a better way to start the week ...

... than with a new issue of PC Engine Gamer magazine.

OK, so I can think of a few things that would kick off the week in a better way than this, but this is pretty good one all the same.

I say that in part because this issue of PC Engine Gamer contains write-ups of two of the cutest PC Engine games around: Be Ball and Star Parodier.

(Silly aside: I'm sure a few hardcore PC Engine fans will want to smack me for saying this, but I actually prefer Be Ball to Star Parodier by a pretty wide margin. I guess I just have a soft spot for chibi Chun-Li-esque protagonists who can't keep their hands off of giant balls.)

That isn't all the seventh issue of PC Engine Gamer has to offer, of course. It also features a fascinating interview with Hudson Soft's Tadayuki Kawada (who worked on the aforementioned Star Parodier) and a surprisingly lengthy Legendary Axe comic.

Anyway, I'd highly recommend checking it out here at your earliest convenience--whether or not you consider yourself to be a PC Engine fan. The articles in this little ezine are witty, well-written and, if you're anything like me, sure to put a smile on your face.

The Great Gaymathon Review #55: PC Genjin 2 (PC Engine)

Game: PC Genjin 2

Genre: Platformer

Developer: Red Company

Publisher: Hudson Soft

System: PC Engine

Release date: 1991

Back when it was released in 1991, I considered PC Genjin 2 (aka Bonk's Revenge) to be miles better than its predecessor. Today, I'm not so sure. Oh, there's no doubt that the second PC Genjin is a more polished affair than the first one, but that doesn't mean the former is superior to the latter--or at least it doesn't in my mind. Which elements make me think Bonk's, er, PC Genjin's first pixelated outing bests his second? For starters, as much as I like the sequel's cuter and cleaner graphics, I prefer the grittier ones found in the original. (I'm especially fond of the original's enemy designs--although the bosses that can be found in its successor are also quite fabulous.) If forced to do so, I'd also choose PC Genjin's "chunkier" soundtrack over the comparably subdued one that was produced for PC Genjin 2, although I feel less strongly about that area of this pair of platformers than I do about others--such as gameplay. Speaking of which, that's another thing Hudson's 1989 release does better than its 1991 follow-up. Specifically, both titles feature a spin move (press a button to make the big-headed protagonist jump into the air and then press another, repeatedly, to make him spin/hover/fly) that is not only more useful in the older game, but more enjoyable, too. (In the newer game, the move is gimped--thanks to a slight delay that was, for some strange reason, added into the mix--to the point of annoyance.) Now, the HuCard otherwise known as Bonk's Adventure doesn't beat its descendant in every category. Case in point: The stages in PC Genjin 2 are the antithesis of straightforward, and the majority of them are a joy to explore. Also, many of said stages harbor bonus rounds and other secrets that are just waiting to be discovered. Finally, I'd be remiss if I failed to mention my favorite part of PC Genjin 2: The power-up that plasters the main character with makeup and provides him with a "kiss attack" that turns enemies to stone. In the end, I now think I prefer Red Company's initial effort to its subsequent one. That said, I consider both to be well worth buying and experiencing.

See also: Previous 'Great Gaymathon' posts

Manual Stimulation: PC Genjin 2 (PC Engine)

As much as I like the instruction manual made for the first PC Genjin game (see it in all its garish glory here), I like the ones made for its successors even more.

One reason for that: PC Genjin's manual is painfully short. Also, it's surprisingly mundane. Given this PC Engine platformer's over-the-top in-game graphics, I expected its manual to include similarly wacky imagery. Sadly, that's not the case.

Calling PC Genjin 2's manual "wacky" may be a bit of a stretch, but it's certainly wackier than the one created for its predecessor. It's also quite a bit more colorful--a fact that's made clear with a simple glance at its cover.



The manual's first real inside page is mighty colorful, too. I especially like the pop-up effect its designer(s) employed.



Although I've always felt a bit crotchety (you know, in a "you whippersnappers get off my lawn!" sort of way) about the way PC Genjin's graphics were cleaned up and otherwise changed in PC Genjin 2, I'm far less conflicted about the overhaul ol' Genjin himself received in that interim. (To see what I'm talking about, compare the illustration below to the ones found here.)



The main thing of note on the following two pages of the PC Genjin 2 manual, in my opinion: The drawing in the lower-left corner of the first page that seems to show Genjin in drag. (To be honest, I'm not sure if players are supposed to think he's in drag or if we're supposed think he's literally turned into a girl. I prefer the former possibility, so I'm going with that.)